Ways to Live (and Love) More Boldly || with Jess Frew

Why taking bold action to live as your true self will open your life and relationships.

What do you think when you hear the phrase, “Be bold?”

Maybe you think of someone yelling, being super blunt, or turning away people who disagree.

I think one of the reasons women shy away from being bold is because we don’t want to be seen as “that person.” We don’t want our relationships to suffer, so sometimes we don’t speak up or share our opinions that force others to be uncomfortable. 

But, what if living boldly meant something very different? 

According to Jess Frew, she’s found that living boldly (in a much different way than you might originally think) has opened her life for so much more. 

That’s because Jess believes living boldly is less about how loud you are, and much more about being true to your self. 

As you do this, you give space for people around you to live that way, too.

Jess Frew is a podcaster, mom, stepmom, wife and ex-wife. Jess has learned to choose bold action. She’s experienced how life’s better on the other side of being bold, including your relationships too!  

Join us to hear tips to live and love more boldly in your own life. You’ll also hear how Jess navigates both the complications and blessings boldness brings to relationships by setting boundaries.

You’ll leave this episode with a new definition of “boldness.” You’ll have a deeper resolve to live boldly as the truest version of yourself. And you’ll make room for others to live that way, as well. Because when you do this, BOTH your true self and others around you will thrive more in the long run! 

About a few other things...

Reclaim your creative power and rediscover who you actually are! If you’re ready to come back home to yourself, to be able to say that you know who you are and what matters to you, take my foundation course, “Finding Me.” It’s OK that you’ve lost parts of yourself along the way; but as you learn to anchor back into who you are and align your life to what matters to you, you’ll find that you have more strength, more fulfilment, and more creativity to bring to your important roles and responsibilities.

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TRANSCRIPT

Monica: Jess Frew, welcome to About Progress.

Jess: Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Monica: Yeah. I feel like this has been a long time coming. You are someone who I've admired so deeply and followed along with your story for quite a while.

And you have a good message for women today, who I think are feeling especially called for "more" in their lives. But that includes being bold in ways that they're not used to being, and involves being bold in ways other people in their lives are not used to them being, and it's scary. They're ready for it. They know it's time, but it is terrifying. So we're going to talk a ton about how they can do this and lot tons of practical tips for them as well. But I would love to start with your own story on how you decided it was time to be bold for yourself, for your loved ones, and how that played out for you, which I'm sure was a mess, right?

Jess: It's been up and down and all over the place that is harsher. Yeah. So my journey being bold actually started when I was a teenager. My dad always told me to BB. He would say, BB Jessica, you need to BB. Be bold. And I always understood that to mean that he wanted me to be true to who I was. So it was kind of this insight that I had as a teen. And it has grown exponentially as I have gotten older.

And, and then in my first marriage, my husband came out as gay a couple years into our marriage. We were married seven years in all. I had to make some bold decisions in that moment when he came out to me. And as I decided what this looks like for me and what this looks like for him and how we continue forward.

We did not have any kids at that time. We continued forward and had a daughter together. And I, I made a bold decision and knowing that, you know, this could end in divorce, he could decide that he needs to be true to this side of himself. But again, in allowing him space to be himself. It allowed me space to be myself and vice versa.

And so we really got to learn who we were in, in that marriage. And then we did ultimately end up getting divorced. And, I've been remarried now for eight years to my husband, and it has been another experience in learning and claiming my sense of self, boldly owning who I am so that I could have a good relationship with my husband, with his kids, with his ex-wife and, and figuring those things out.

And also, I mean, I still have an amazing relationship with my ex-husband, we have continued to be friends and we have created a relationship that works for us. By owning who I am and loving myself, I have seen how it has opened me up to be able to love these people in my life in ways I never ever thought I would be able to.

And especially like my ex-husband in knowing that I still get to love him. And he still loves me. We are not in love with each other, but we do greatly love each other. I always say he's like my brother now. I've also been able to see how I get to love my husband's ex wife in a way that I didn't think I would. And we understand we have a very high conflict relationship with her, but also, but loving and appreciating her in a level on a level that I didn't know, I would and hoping for the best for her. And also for my step kids.

Being bold and loving myself has opened up the door to invite other people in to me, be able to love them on a deeper level and also open up this way.

I get to that they get to love themselves and be themselves around me. And that is what like lights me on fire is when I get to see people loving themselves genuinely and being themselves, because I, I want to see who people are. And I think that's ultimately what we want, but we're kind of scared of getting there.

Like you said, it can be terrifying to be yourself, to not know if people are going to love and accept you as you are. But man, when you get there and it opens up that door for other people to be themselves, you get to love them on a deeper level, just as they get to love you on a deeper level, because you're both being authentically who you feel called to be.

Monica: You are turning so many things on their heads for me. And the first is, you know, growing up, and even now, when I hear the word bold, I don't hear like, I don't interpret it immediately. My first gut reaction is not like welcome people in love, and inviting people into your life. Like you said, I, that's not my first interpretation.

My first interpretation is to turn people away because of my boldness. And that shows my own subconscious beliefs about this, that being bold means I turn people.

Jess: Yeah. Well, and I think often when we hear the word bold, we think of people who are loud and in your face and doing things in a way that aren't considerate sometimes of other people's feelings or emotions, but really being bold means being true to who you are, listening to, who you are and showing up for yourself. That may be saying, I don't want to go to this party because that's not who I am. I don't want to put myself in this situation because it doesn't speak to me. I'm not going to engage in this conversation because it's not feeding my soul and, and not having to defend yourself in that. Of saying, you know what, this, I'm not going to talk about this and walking away, instead of feeling like, you know, sometimes when we hear bold, we feel like, well, then we have to stand up and say exactly what we're thinking and feeling when really you don't.

I think it's almost the opposite of realizing you don't have to justify who you are and how you're showing up. And also giving space for people, like giving them that same grace of, okay, I hear what you're saying. I might not completely understand it, but I'm going to give you space to feel that without prying, without engaging more, or making them feel like they have to defend who they are.

Monica: That's probably the biggest subconscious belief is women thinking, being bold means XYZ. And that's not me, but I hear you saying it's so different. It's, it's loving yourself. It's being true to yourself. It's showing up for yourself. And as you do that, that is why you're able to then do that for others. And sometimes it's almost like the reverse is what can help us know if we're being bold or not.

Right. If we know, are you struggling, letting other people be who they need to be? Are you struggling letting other people love themselves? Are you, are you, are you not letting them show up for themselves or to have boundaries? Then that might point to you needing this to be bold in these ways for yourself.

Jess: A hundred percent. I feel like almost everything that we think about somebody else, or when we take offense of something, is either because. It's true. Like we're offended because it's true. And we don't want to deal with that or process that. And I'm not saying this as a case every time, but I feel like for me, a lot of that is whenever I feel offended, I dive into that. But also going back to that first part of. Understanding that most of the time we're projecting our own issues onto other people of, you know, I, I'm not being true to who I am. And therefore it's hard for me to see other people who are being true to themselves.

Monica: You talked a lot about how this can benefit relationships. You know, my first knee-jerk reaction was being like, oh, that will push people away and your'e saying no, the opposite happens. So what are some of these relationship benefits that you've seen? Because I bringing this up just really quickly, I'm bringing this up because.

I think the number one reason, women are afraid to be bold, to be true to themselves, to support themselves, to show up for themselves, to love themselves is because they're afraid of how it will act as an obstacle in their relationships. How it will ruffle feathers, how it will make people have to do show up differently to their relationships.

So how have you dealt with that? Let's start there and how. How can this really benefit relationships? We talked about this a little bit, but let's dig into a little more.

Jess: Okay. So one of the things that I, I go to when I hear this is that we, we are stuck showing up how we feel we should show up, which I believe you have talked about before is that we, we get stuck in this mindset of how we should show up.

And we get so focused on that, that we stop listening to our own voice telling us what we really need to do. So when I first got married to my husband, his kids went to a school where they didn't have lunch at school. And so we made them lunches every day and sent them lunch, which I was happy to do. I was making lunch for my daughter. She was in kindergarten. And it's, it's a way I show love is by making food for people and taking care of the people in my life. And so I was happy to provide lunch for these kids. It's what I should do as their stepmom. And I wanted to do that. And after a while, there started to be some issues with their mom and she ended up starting showing up at the kids' school every day to check their lunches because she was, the kids were mad because they thought, okay, I sent candy to school with my daughter and I didn't send it to them.

So they told their mom that I was withholding food from their lunches. And so she was showing up every day to check their lunches, to make sure I was sending them food. And so. I, I mean, it was became a very stressful thing for me everyday to pack these kids' lunches because I knew somebody was coming in and checking on them.

And so I made a decision. After they started going to a school where there was lunch provided that they either needed to pack their own lunches or they just ate lunch at school.

And at first my husband, I think, was very taken aback kind of. Offended of, you're still making your daughter's lunch. Why aren't you making these kids? But then also as I started doing it, he started to recognize the peace that I had around it. And it actually helped my relationship with his kids because then there was one less thing that was adding stress to that relationship. There was one less thing that was hard.

It was a bold move on my part to say, I can't do this. And it felt mean, and it felt like I wasn't wanting to show up for his first kids or I wasn't wanting to love them in the way I loved my daughter. But then as we moved forward, Everybody started to see how this was less stressful for all of us. It was less stressful for me, less stressful for his kids, less stressful for my husband.

And, and there are people who I know judge me for this who I still often make my daughter's lunch and I don't make his kids' lunch. And there are people that are like, it's just a jerk thing to do. And I get it from the outside, looking in. I can see why that seems like such a mean thing to do. But when you understand the situation and come at it from a place of knowing, you can see how this benefits everybody in the long run.

So. I think that that is why sometimes being bold and setting those boundaries can be scary is because it does maybe from the beginning or the appearance of things look like it's something mean, or that you're not being loving. But really you're loving yourself first. And more often than not, it helps your relationship by inviting these people in.

They know what to expect. My kids know what to expect. They don't have to worry about those things in their lives. So there's, there's things we don't see in being bold that we don't understand and tell. But if you feel that calling and are listening to what you need to do for yourself in your life, more often than not, it is the right thing and is going to bring more peace, more clarity, more love to your life and your relationships than anything.

And if it doesn't and it's not working, then you get to pivot and you can say, Hey, this thing didn't work. And sometimes we need to go down that route of things, not working to realize how right the other direction is to realize, oh, I should have gone this way. So I don't, I never think of taking that action is a mistake, but rather that learning experience, you get to learn from that and grow.

Monica: There's a lot of curiosity and compassion there, which are to the central values of the, the way we show up to this community. And courage is one of them to be in bold, takes a lot of courage because you're going to have people who will not accept who you are.

And again, I just want to emphasize being bold as being yourself. It's being true to your self. It doesn't have to mean you're suddenly using megaphones and your own household and protesting it doesn't have to be like that. It's just being you. So what would you recommend women do? Who present this gift of themselves to people who are not ready to receive it? How can they navigate that?

Jess: Yeah. So when somebody is not ready to receive who you are, the first things I always say are, give grace to the people in your life as you are taking steps to show up as your true self, give them time to process, allow them some space to make mistakes, or maybe disagree a little bit.

If they don't come around, and aren't able to love and accept you for who you are and showing up as your true self, which to them is going to feel like you just made this big change and it can feel this way. It's not always going to feel this way, but what is going on? I just don't know you anymore.

Sometimes these are the things people go through and experience. But in that. More often than not people come around. The people that you love and care about the most are going to be supportive. Now, if they're not, you get to start seeing who in your life is your people., Who is it? That is, that are the people that are going to fill your cup, that are the people that you need to keep close.

And they're going to be some people that don't fill your cup, that you might feel like you need to keep in your life. But you understand how to set the boundaries around that. Okay. Well maybe I don't want to engage in these types of conversations with them. I'm not going to talk about AB and C with them and that's okay.

It's not that you're not being. Your true self it's just that you are protecting your relationship with them. You are protecting the things that you can't talk about. Those things harm your relationship. And so you get to change the subject or change the topic. And all you have to say in those moments, people are always like, well, how'd you do that and be nice?

Like, first of all, it's not about being nice. You need to be nice to yourself. And also when you are being clear about what you will not talk about or which situations you won't engage in or why you don't do certain things anymore you are being clear. I always think of Brene Brown. When I talk about this, because "clear is kind." You are letting them know what to expect, which is kind, which is showing love for them and for yourself.

And it actually invites people in because they get to see, okay, I know what to expect in this moment. I know that these are things we're not going to talk about and that that's okay. And that there's a reason and try to stay away from those or situations or whatever it is. And sometimes people have our time getting on board with that, but you aren't responsible for the other person's feelings or their reactions. You are responsible for how you act.

You can show up in a very kind way. And sometimes that's well-received and sometimes it's not, it doesn't mean you were at fault there. You get to learn from that and process how you feel about that. But. Also, you can't take on the other person's feelings. So recognizing that you're doing this for yourself, but also you're not being selfish in doing that, you are being kind in doing that because you are showing people what your boundaries are and that's, that's being kind.

Monica: Yeah. It can be especially painful when it's a loved one in your family that you feel like I want to be seen, and I want to see them, you know, and that's you that you've given that offering and they're not ready to receive it. And sometimes those boundaries that you were just talking about, And I've written boundaries so many times I look at my notes like boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, but I just want to say also, I think those boundaries can be internal. Like sometimes they don't have to be explicitly expressed. Like I see that you don't want to see me. So I will now not be talking about these items anymore, or I will always be friendly and loving to you, but I won't let you in.

Like we don't have to spell it out directly to people, but we can know we have those internal boundaries and that's something I've honestly been trying to navigate myself with the relationship in my life that I can't put aside. But I also know that this person rejected me. And so because of that, I'm still going to try to show up with love, but with my own internal boundaries of knowing that my offerings are not going to be received, whether it's my opinion or my sense of humor or what's going on in my life. That's hard. I just know to keep it to myself.

Jess: It is hard. And one of the things that we have to talk about is sometimes making the right choice doesn't have like that instant you feel at peace or you feel like, oh, I just did such a great thing. Sometimes it feels hard. But I usually feel like there's a mixture of that peace of knowing and, and clarity that comes after that. I did the right thing. This might feel heavy because I am losing something. I am mourning a relationship that I thought I would have, or even I still have that relationship, but I am mourning how the relationship was going to look how I, how I thought it was going to look.

And that's real. We all have those expectations or ideas of how our relationships are going to look. And it's also a hundred percent okay. And a very valid thing to me. How you thought it was going to look? I feel like I've done that over and over again. When my, when I realized my husband was gay again, when he had the affair again, when we got divorced. My relationship with my husband, my current husband has not been what I thought it would be.

At least it wasn't in the beginning and having to rethink that and understand. You know how it could look. And so it's, it's just a process and it's a real process of mourning and letting go of that. And I love that you point out that we don't have to always vocalize that. We, as I think as women, maybe more so have an issue with this.

I don't know if it is, I'm just a woman. So I understand that I have an issue with this of needing to defend. I boundaries or needing to explain, and I have found so much peace in realizing I do not have to. I do not have to engage. I do not have to say, well, you don't understand this is what's going on. And the peace that it has brought me in doing that is huge. Of recognizing that one little thing that, okay, I don't have to defend this.

And no matter what anybody else says It doesn't matter what people are going to see you for who you are, because you keep showing up as your, as yourself. I have even straight away from saying your best self or a better version of yourself. You're showing up as yourself. Like that's where the gold is.

That's where like the magic happens. So yeah, I really love that you brought that up, that you do not have to acknowledged even that you're setting these boundaries except yourself.

Monica: A big part of this too, is just giving space space to yourself to be yourself space, to yourself, to navigate the mess of this can entail whether it's mourning how relationships are different or the how they can't be the way they used to be mourning the people who reject you straight up, but also at the end of the day, like you said, it's not going to be easy, you're not going to have rose colored glasses on all the time, but at the end it's still a private.

Worth paying because of the benefits, not only just for yourself, this isn't about yourself, it's about other relationships that you can then welcome into your life and to make a part of your life and to influence each other, to see and be seen in a reciprocal, accepting relationship, whether it's a friend or a neighbor or a friend on the internet, which I feel like most of my friends are. It is so not only comforting, but expansive, it helps you just continue to be even more of yourself.

So for sure, we love to give the listeners practical tips on how to do this because I'm sure people are listening. Like this sounds great, but I don't even know what the first. And how to be true to myself. So where would you advise it get started?

Jess: Okay. So one of the things I, I say to start with is to take ownership of your life. Which really entails, you know, coming back to that victim mindset. It's okay to feel like a victim every once in a while. Like, I want you to embrace those feelings. So, yes, acknowledge and process. Also acknowledge that now you have the power to decide how your life is going to look, and you can sit in this mindset and dwell there, but is that really what you want for your life?

Do you want to be stuck in this place where you're angry and bitter at this person? Or do you want to go forward and create a new life that you get to love?

And so You know, I had somebody when I first got divorced, that kept saying, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And it was somebody very close to me said, will you please stop telling me you're sorry? I made decisions that got me to this point in my life. I now get to make the decisions going forward of how my life will look.

So take that ownership of this is my life. I get to decide what I'm going to do with it now. And nobody's going to have the power over me to determinethat my life, doesn't get to be filled with joy and happiness. You get to move forward, you get to decide how it looks and then take action.

And one of the things I encourage people to do is to understand the fear behind this new situation or the new dynamic of the relationship.

So like, for me, when I got divorced, my fear was, how does this look for my daughter? I don't want to be that couple that can't be in the same room together or at the big events in her life. Whether that's graduating or marriage or having kids, whatever that looks like for her. I don't want her to worry about her parents being in the same room together. I didn't even want her to worry about her birthdays being separate or holidays being separate.

And so we created a relationship that works, and I am grateful that my ex was on board with that. But you can create the relationship that works no matter what whether the other person is on board or not.

So first taking that. Identifying what the fear is around the situation, around the relationship, whatever it is, and figuring out how you can make it work for you. .

Monica: Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife said . . . We had a whole episode about choices, like choosing to be happy. And she said something that I really think is powerful. She's, you know, she said we don't, I I'm paraphrasing, but we often can't choose our choices, but we can choose how we're going to show up to them.

And that's what I just see exemplified in you. I mean, to contrast your fear you shared something on your Instagram profile a while back about you and your ex-husband both being at a swim meet together, you know, and you were painting each other's nails and like, and like hanging out together on the blanket and just having a whole day together to be alongside each other for your daughter.

And you didn't necessarily want to be in that position. Right. But you chose how you're going to show up to it.

Jess: Yes.

Monica: So that, to me, that was like the best example to bring in. So thank you for that. What's another tip for them.

Jess: So another thing that I feel like. Is a huge barrier for us is we don't know what really brings us joy.

We, we might be able to say what brought us joy before, you know, like when we were single or in college or in high school, even. Or we may get stuck on what brought us joy before we had children, whatever it is before we are at this point in our life, we focus on what used to bring us joy and how we can't have that thing anymore, because I have kids because I have this because I have that.

We get so focused on the things we can't have and the things that don't bring us joy that often we don't understand and figure out the things that do bring us joy. And some of these things can be so simple.

And I think on top of that is creating the space for them in our lives. Instead of viewing this as a selfish thing, we take this a little bit of time, we do the thing that brings us joy, and then we get to show up better for our families because we get to be focused on them. We get to be focused on the next thing and guaranteed. Your family brings you some level of joy. At least I really hope that they do. So really by taking time, it isn't selfish. It is adding this space to be able to show up wholeheartedly to the other things in your life and not feel like you're being like you're missing out on you.

Monica: We have a lot of crossover in our work. Yes. And this is to me is fulfillment. We have something called the, do something list where women can try to explore and discover what that joy is again, in their lives and how to feel like themselves.

I think that's what joy is. It's feeling like yourself. Yeah. So I love that and I, you have one final pointer for us.

Jess: Yeah. So and we've kind of touched on this as we've talked throughout this of silencing that noise of other people's opinions and, and the whole point of that is so that you can hear yourself and the more you hear yourself, the more you act on what you are feeling and hearing, the more you, you hear it speak up. So the more often you take time to tune into that and silence the noise of other people's opinions the more, you get to embrace who you are.

And also recognize that I always say this in the lessons. I teach your mom, your girlfriends, your sometimes your partner sometimes, you know, whoever does not know what is right for you. Hmm. Sometimes their opinions are valuable and helpful, and sometimes they're very destructive and stop you from hearing what it is you need.

I think I always use the example of my mom because I absolutely adore my mom. She lives three blocks away from me. And we obviously wouldn't live that close if I did not enjoy her, but I can not go to her when I am in the thick of something, because she has a tendency to first take me out of that ownership mindset of, I get to decide how I show up to this situation. I can't change the other person. She wants the other person to change. Oh, it's all their fault. It's all their, whatever. And so I can't make a decision or hear what it is I want because I get focused on the other person changing. And so as much as I love and adore my mom, I can't go to her in the thick of something to figure out my own opinion.

I might go to her and cry and whatever. I recognize that, that what she's telling me, isn't always going to be what I need to hear or what I need to do in that moment. That can be hard because I love my mom and I do value her opinion, but I also want to know what my own feelings are and what my own opinion is before I engage with her so that I can make a clear decision that feels right for me.

Often, we can't hear our own voice because we are letting too many other voices in. And as we silence those other voices and start to hear our own and take action on that, the easier it is to hear ourselves.

Monica: I'm thinking back to, before I started the podcast, I started a blog "About Progress" and it was all over the map.

It was, it was like recipes and like lifestyle stuff, intermixed with very deep personal essays. Like there was no focus niched, but I felt pretty strongly early on that I would need it to talk about my struggles with my faith. And I asked my parents, I asked Brad and they all said, don't do it. And, and it was more because they wanted to protect me. You know, it was more about the fear. We talk a lot about intuitive eating, you know, and I'm an intuitive eater, but I'm really shifting to something I'm starting to like call for myself and maybe other people already have this out there. And if so, I promise I didn't steal this from you, but I'm probably going to find out. . . Intuitive living.

And to me, that is being clear on my own inner compass, which is often my feelings, which I'm only learning the past few years it's been like every sign has pointed to you need to get. At processing your feelings and letting them lead you. But when I look back at the times where I was able to step aside from the opinions of others, even those I really cared about and pay attention to that inner compass.

I have not been led wrong. And, and to me, I had a strong, inner feeling, a push that I needed to share it. And that opened a lot of doors to this community because a big part of where this community came from was just that single post, you know, and I don't dunno. It's just helping me see, okay. Those are the, those are the breadcrumbs we can pick up.

And maybe they can think about that. Like when's a time where you were living intuitively and following your feelings. And, you know, luckily this is also example of that was hard for Brad, for me to put myself out there. But then when the time came after I started the podcast, like a couple years in, I was like, I think it's time for me to now share this on my podcast. And who was right on board?

It was Brad. Like he was totally onboard. Other people in my life were not, but he was because he caught the vision of what it meant for me to live boldly in ways that looked right for me. And that helped us, you know, move together. I was, I could be seen and I could also see better. Yeah. Kind of comes full circle.

Jess: Yeah. And I just got goosebumps as you were talking about that, because the idea. You took that bold move that felt right to you and was scary, especially scary because you knew the people closest to you weren't necessarily on board, but you did it. And look at all of the people that came in, they were saying, this is me as well.

This is, these are my feelings. And there are going to be people that are, of course are going to be negative about those things that we do, but those, those aren't your people. And that's something that can be so hard for us to recognize, but it's okay. They have other people who are their people, and that is beautiful and wonderful, and that is why we are all different.

So I love that. That's a perfect example of taking that bold action and then it comes back. I've always found that there are more people that come to me or that resonate with what I am saying as I am putting myself out there, there are more of those than people who are mean or bitter or angry. And so while I see those things, I choose to not focus there.

Instead we get to focus on the love that's being offered and the support and the love that we're giving other people and the love that they're giving us.

Monica: And that really is the root of everything we've talked about today. It's love for self for others and, and that's a really beautiful thing. So I want to of course tell people where to find you, but first let's give them one small thing that they can do now to live boldly. What could that be? One small doable way for them to live boldly. I'm putting you on the spot.

Jess: So the thing that comes to mind right off the bat and that I hope I hope is a small thing, but it might feel big, but it can, it gets to be a smaller thing.

The more you practice this. Listen to your emotions, allow yourself to lean into them and to feel them. And I always say to journal about it. Journal what it is you're feeling around this one thing. And then trust that emotion. Don't shut it down. Trust what you are feeling. don't say, oh, well, you know, I shouldn't feel this way or, oh, I should feel this way or whatever.

Don't, don't put a label on it, just embrace it and feel it. And then, and then figure out why you're feeling it. Why for you is that important? And this goes along with all of the emotions we categorize as good emotions too. Why am I so happy in this moment? Like you sharing that thing that was so close to your heart.

I'm I feel like that probably brought you joy and it brought you peace if nothing else, because it was something inside of you wanting to get it out. Why am I feeling this right this moment? I was scared to do this, but now I feel all of these good things around it. This isn't what I was taught I should do, but I am feeling so good about this. There's one thing that I'm doing. So just so evaluate all of the emotions and recognize them and get to know them and why you feel them. And in that you're getting to know yourself.

Monica: Thank you, Jess. This was something I needed a lot, even though, you know, I, I preach a lot of these things.

Sometimes you kind of get lost in your own practice of them, and this is helping me get back to some things I was needing to focus on in my life. So thank you. So speaking of relationships and how they can grow and become reciprocal. And all about love. You have a podcast with your current husband and your ex-husband called Husband In Law, and that's where we want to send people, but where else should they go if they want to connect with you in the work you're doing?

Jess: Yeah. So we are very. I'm very active on Instagram. It's the three of us on there, but it's our Instagram handle is also has been in law. And we are really out there sharing our stories of love, marriage divorce, coming out, religion all of the things that we've been through to help others feel not alone.

And to help you realize, you know, you can take bold action. It's not always going to look how you planned or how other people have planned, but figuring out what that is for you. So that is a great place to find us.

Monica: Thank you, Jess. Well, I'm excited for people to join your community and to benefit from everything you do.

So thank you.

Jess: Thank you. Thanks for having me.