Perfectionism in Parenting Teens: How to Help your Perfectionist Kids, Better Handle your Own Mistakes, and What to do When your Kids Notice That you’re Human || co-interview with Heather Frazier

This week we have a co-interview between me and Heather Frazier, host of the Pivot Parenting podcast. First, I share how I've seen perfectionism affect my experience raising children and also as a middle school teacher. Then, Heather teaches how we can better handle when our teens differentiate themselves from us, and as a result show us our flaws and failures.

The conversation delves into practical strategies for maintaining a strong connection with teenagers, even amidst imperfections. Heather emphasizes the power of grace, reminding parents that it's okay to make mistakes. She encourages parents to express unconditional love and support, creating a safe space for their teens to grow and navigate their own challenges.

Whether you have teenagers and want a stronger connection with them, or don't have teenagers quite yet, this conversation will give you hope. With a little bit of effort and a lot of understanding, you can pivot your parenting towards connection, in a way that is aligned with your values, too.

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TRANSCRIPT

Heather: Welcome to today's episode of Pivot Parenting. I have a special guest, a fellow podcaster and friend, Monica Packer. Hello.

Monica: This is fun. I'm glad we're doing something different.

Yes, this

Heather: is very fun. And Monica's show is called About Progress.

And I. Love her podcast and her work. It speaks to me, but I would love to hear you introduce yourself, Monica, to my

Monica: listeners. Sure. So I'm Monica Packer. I live in the Salt Lake area. I'm a podcaster. Like you said, at about progress, we're a personal development show that focuses on progress outside of perfectionism.

And we try to work on a lot of practical ways we can grow in the real world, not this imaginary world that other people tend to act like we live in that kind of world when they give us advice. I'm also a mom of five kids and living the dream and also the everyday reality that I think most people are, who are listening to both of our shows.

And since we're doing this really cool style of both interviewing each other and airing it on each of our shows, I also want to start with you introducing yourself to my listeners who don't know you.

Heather: Yeah, my name is Heather Frazier. I live in Utah County with my four kids and some bonus kids and a bonus grandbaby that I love.

And I found coaching when my oldest was about... 15 years old. I could have used it when she was 12 and 13. So we had a rough few years and then I figured out how to have a quality relationship with her and her brother that was fast on her heels of deciding I was the worst. And I was able to turn things all around.

And then they would have their friends over and their friends would complain about their parents. And I just thought parents need to know the secrets that I have discovered. And so I decided to become a coach. I have my podcast, Pivot Parenting. And then I also coach privately Instagram. I have a website with all kinds of good stuff, all the things.

Monica: Great. I think we can just start by saying our main topic is an umbrella topic. And we both have different ways. We're going to talk about it. It's perfectionism and parenting both how to handle when your kids are acting more as perfectionist and how to also handle when your child becomes almost a perfectionist with you.

Hey mom, you are a human and I don't like it. And I'm going to point it out all the time. So we talked in advance, like you're going to. Take the lead on the first round of this discussion. I'm excited.

Heather: Yeah. So we're both airing this on our podcast. And so I'm going to ask Monica a few questions, and then she'll turn around and ask me the first thing that I want to know, Monica, so that we have a good foundational understanding is how do you identify perfectionism?

Monica: I say this to adult women all the time, but it applies to any age. Perfectionism is a misplacement of identity. It's us putting our worth and our sense of self on our outcomes, whether we have them or we do not have them. And perfectionists I think are often mislabeled as these type a very stereotypical overachievers, although they absolutely can be that, but.

A big missing piece of the perfectionism puzzle is that a lot of perfectionists are the quote unquote underachieving kind, the kinds that are waiting on the sideline, the sidelines of their lives, because they are waiting to get to the point where they have the time or energy or money. Or because.

They tried the overachieving didn't work for them. They know they can't get the all version of the all or nothing. So they might as well stay safe on the sidelines of nothing. And you're going to see that in many different ways with kids. And we can definitely talk about that, but that's my initial way of framing what perfectionism is.

Heather: I love that. So is perfectionism ever helpful in your opinion?

Monica: I would say this is going to be a little controversial. My honest answer is no.

Yeah. Perfectionism is never helpful. And it's because of that identity piece. When you place your sense of self on outcomes, you will never win ever. And when people hear that, they have a lot of reservations because then they think that means they shouldn't try. Or that they shouldn't have goals or ambitions or work hard at things.

And my answer to those concerns is that is perfectionism. When you have that framework of all or nothing, that's perfectionism. So there, there is a middle ground and actually it's the better ground. And to me, I define that as progress, obviously, because we're about progress, but yes, there is a way to still work to better.

One self to strive for things that are better, but it comes from a different place. It comes from a stronger and grounded sense of self that can be stable in the ups and downs that true growth requires of us, which involves failure. Perfectionists want to avoid failure at all costs, whether by overworking underworking, right?

So yes, there is a way to still grow, but there's never really a healthy version of perfectionism. Yeah,

Heather: that's also my opinion. To me, it feels like a counterfeit of confidence. Looks like confidence, smells like confidence, but it's anything but confidence. Yes.

Monica: And I would say as the stereotypical overachiever for quite some time that I projected that confidence, but it was not there.

It's a very faulty foundation of confidence, but yeah, you, that is a good perspective. I love that.

Heather: Yeah. Okay. So looking at parents who want to seem perfect, how do we consciously and subconsciously model this unhelpful? way of seeing ourselves to our children.

Monica: Let's start with just the simplest way that we often become perfectionistic parents.

And that's placing our value as a parent or identity as a parent off of how our children are doing. Yeah, I coach on that all the time. And you know what? It's in many ways. a valid thing that we do because we do care and we love them and we want to do right by them. Yeah. And

Heather: society teaches us that our kids really are an extension of us.

Like you see somebody and you think, Oh, what did their mom do to them?

Monica: And in many ways that is true to like some extent that. Is true. But also this is back to the all or nothing thing. It's not that black and white. Like these are humans and we can't control their behavior. We learned that when they're toddlers, but I think we forget it when they're also 12 to 18 years old as well.

Like they cannot be the way that we value our efficacy as parents. I was actually hearing this from my friend, Cheryl Cardall. She. Is a mom of kids with lots of needs and those came out in the teen years, especially, and she did a mental health conference recently called fight like a mother conference.

And she talked about this phrase that we hear I'm only as happy as my saddest child. My mom said that all growing up and I still get it. And it made me feel good knowing that my mom cared about how I felt, but Cheryl turned that on its head because she said, if that were true, I would never, ever.

Ever be happy. And my children need me to be stable so I can help them where they need it. So I guess that just goes back to the main way. I think we can do it as parents is banking our identity as good parents off of how our children are doing. And that again, doesn't mean we go to the all or nothing route and just say, do whatever you want.

You're a human, you have your agency and I can't control you. So I'm just not going to try. That's not the answer either. It's saying like they had a bad day. So I'm a bad parent. They had a good day. So I'm an amazing parent. What a dangerous roller coaster ride.

Heather: Yeah. Or they're making good choices. So I'm a good parent or I just found weed.

So I'm a bad parent. Yeah. Any other examples of conscious or subconscious?

Monica: I'm just thinking about how we model failure and being here. I don't think it's right for our children to carry on their backs, the burden of our emotions and our struggles. That's not good parenting. You don't have to say I'm having a really bad day and you need to parent me and help my day go better.

Heather: Yeah. Forcing your kid to walk on eggshells.

Monica: Yes. Yes. But I also think it's healthy for your kids to see you model going through a bad day and how you handle that or facing a disappointment. Or a failure or messing up as a parent and what you do about those mistakes. That way they can see it's okay for them to be human.

It's okay for them to have a bad day or some bad emotions or unhealthy reactions and how to, because they learn from your modeling. Repair where needed, try again, where needed, take a look at what went wrong and decide how they're going to do it differently. And again, go back to that striving of trying and growing.

There's a healthy level of differentiation for that. We have to maintain that. And that means again, we're respecting that they're not responsible for parenting us.

But how cool would it be to have a parent who, is having a bad day and to see them take care of themselves to say, I'm having a bad day today. So I need to go for a walk right now so I can just process these emotions. I'll be back in about 30 minutes or, I had a big disappointment at work.

Can I tell you a little bit about it? And then to say here's how I'm trying to deal with this. I'm trying to do these things or to even just have them see it and you're not always saying it. Yeah. That would be

Heather: remarkable. Yeah. I love that. How do we identify perfectionistic tendencies?

Monica: Kids, this can be so tricky. I think most parents are going to start looking for the stereotypical signs of perfectionism. A kid who's very high anxiety very good work ethic on that hamster wheel of just achievement and always trying to churn things out. Someone who does not deal well with failure at all, like in a very obvious way.

Yeah. But when I talk to parents, Most of the time, it's not so visible. It's the kid who won't join the honors math class because they're convinced they won't do well, or they won't try out for the musical productions crew because they could not handle the rejection. It's often the kids who are quiet about not trying.

They might seem lazy. They might seem unmotivated and you might even be judging their level of work ethic. And just think what's wrong with you. Like you have to work hard to get going. So it's tricky. I think if you can just pay attention to what's going on with your kid and try to just notice. How they're dealing with mistakes.

How did they deal with them as a child? And how has that maybe transitioned to a teen and just listening to your gut about where are they placing their worth? Do they have a strong sense of self? Do they know who they are? And most teens struggle with this. So that can be a little bit of a messy ground for sure.

But your gut, I think will often be the lead here of, is this to another level that I need to be concerned. Yeah.

Heather: The psychosocial stage of development in adolescence is identity. So they literally are trying to figure out who they want to be. That's why they burn through friends, fast music trends, one day they're wearing prissy pink and the next it's all black but that totally makes sense.

So how do we model then a healthy approach to goals and life? Because honestly, all we can do for our kids. Is meant for and love them and like our example, I feel is the best thing that we can give them. I think so too. Are there any specifics that we can do as parents to show them what a healthy chasing our goals and going after things in life could potentially look like?

Cause we're not trying out for the play or the soccer team. Maybe we are.

Monica: Why not join the rec league, right? So I have a friend who just ran a marathon and she trained for it for months and. What she did is she involved her family in the training, even if she got up before they woke up for the day, she would let them know how her run went that day.

She would tell them how many miles she was going to go the night before she would give them reports. And in doing that, she invited them in the process of seeing what it took for her to work towards a big goal. And what I love though, is on race day. It actually didn't go great for her at a certain point.

She found her legs were just not moving. They were like in cement blocks and she was trying to run and reach her goal that she'd worked so hard for. And she called her husband on the phone and told him about how it was going. And, he encouraged her and coached her through it, but at the end of the finish line, guess who joined her and that last stretch, it was her daughter.

And it was just this. Wonderful moment of that daughter being able to show like you've modeled for me and how I've been reaching for goals, how to encourage someone and be there. You've also let me in on this process and now I can do that for you. You did not hit your goal and you're discouraged.

But I can cheer you on. And this friend is actually public too. Her name is Courtney Rich. She's Cake by Courtney. And she just did a reel on that. That was really awesome. If people want to go and see that moment at the end of her daughter running alongside her and basically holding her at the finish line.

But I love that what happened was all before that, like how, why that moment was able to happen was because of everything Courtney did to invite her kids in on something she was working towards and the ups and downs that entailed and also a messy outcome for her that day.

Heather: I love that. That takes a huge amount of vulnerability and humility on a parent's part.

Monica: Yeah. Cause again, we don't want them to carry the burdens. So sometimes it can be hard to know how much do I let them in or how much do I let them see that I'm struggling? And I would say, if you're worried about that, just take it moment by moment. You don't have to decide that in advance because life is not that predictable anyway, so just take it moment by moment.

Heather: No, I love that. Okay. Speaking of Instagram moments, you did something really interesting on your Instagram, which by the way, Monica has a fantastic Instagram that you need to go check out, but you did like a cleanish house thing. And you've got a lot of response to that.

Because I think it really resonates because it combines two things that I want to ask you about, which is as parents, we have a lot to do's. Yeah. Cleaning our house, getting the errands run, making sure that nobody starves to death or, get sleep and not too many video games and all like we have so many things to do.

Yes. Besides dentists, doctors, managing our own self,

tell me how you think to do's and perfectionism intersect.

Monica: We're going to go back to that misplacement of identity piece. When we're looking at outcomes, we can see that with productivity really easily. We can be able to say, look at all the things I did today. And with children, especially teens, that can be a point of big conflict because when we don't see all that they do during the day, especially if they're in a traditional school setting and not being homeschooled and also like how tired they might be by the end of the day and all that and we.

Also need help and we want them to learn responsibilities and include them in the to dos of the household, which I really believe in a lot, especially as a mom of four boys. I want those boys to know how to do their own laundry and make their own meals and all those kinds of things. So this just goes back to a balance of one, how are we modeling our sense of self removed from our productivity?

And then two, how are we removing our anxiety of our children and their sense of self and who they are from their level of productivity to don't go the all or nothing route. Again, saying that means like they, I just have to let them be no include them in the process. But make sure it's realistic and masters their life.

Make sure it's a stretch, like a place you're stretching them to be a little uncomfortable to contribute in ways that aren't easy for them necessarily, but not so much that they snap and that your relationship snaps to now I'll say I have a 12 year old was my oldest, so I haven't had the same experience as many people who are listening yet, and I'm sure there's going to be many things that I do not know, but I at least know.

That's what is working for my kids is trying to have that teeter-totter of knowing when I need to push them and require more of them and when I need to give them some grace and step back a little bit and just give them a moment to breathe. But I think like everything we can teach our kids, it comes back most often to modeling.

Just hammer sometimes. Dang it, the answer is me. The answer is me. The

Heather: nice thing about that is though, is that our kids need to have models for them, how to own mistakes, say I'm sorry, get things wrong and fix it. So it really is perfect. Yeah. We don't have to. Model being never getting it wrong as a parent, because then they don't get the model of how to fix it when they don't get it right.

Monica: And I feel like the Gottman Institute was the percentage of how many times we have to get it right is like

50%. It's oh. That's it. Let's do it. That's attainable. Preparing. Yeah.

Heather: Yes. Yes. I tell my clients all the time. If you can just shift the scale so that it's more than half that you are behaving in this new way, that's a win. Yes. And an A. Is 80%. So actually a B minus is really like an A

Monica: for sure.

Yeah. We have to change that whole percentage. Yes. Yes. Yes. System.

Heather: Okay. Monica, before we wrap up your portion, is there anything else that you want to add in or anything fantastic that you're doing right now that my listeners need to know about?

Monica: I will say one thing that has helped me the most as a parent, as I'm navigating these waters of three, my kids have special needs and I'm sure there's many more needs to come both emotionally and physically and also developmentally because they keep changing.

That's just how it goes. The thing that has grounded me a lot, both for myself and for my parenting is knowing what my values are. And these aren't like my. Religious moral values. I'm talking about all values being good values and what my specific ones are. And to help them do that, I do have a values exercise that might be helpful.

It's called the ultimate values exercise, and they can get that for free at about progress. com

Heather: slash values. Okay. And we'll put that in the show notes if you're driving or folding laundry or something and can't hit pause. Yes. Write that down.

Monica: That'd be great. So now we're turning the tables and it's my turn to interview you, which I'm so excited for.

And can we actually begin with you telling a little bit of your own story as you moved into the teenage years with your children? You're just a step ahead of me in that department. So what was that transition like for you as a parent and as a family? Yes.

Heather: When I was having little ones, I have to say while I loved my babies. I had always really looked forward to midlife actually being out of strollers and naptimes and diaper bags and being able to have. intelligent conversations and travel and be with my kids on a more adult plane.

And so it was really hard when they were reaching those ages and wanted nothing to do with me because I just thought I've been waiting for this moment. And it's literally the opposite of what I wanted. And so it was a hard transition. But again, I found all of these psychology tools and I actually went back to school and took site classes and adolescent development classes on top of my coaching certifications.

And so now I have what I wanted.

Monica: Paint the picture for us a little bit. When you say like they did not want. Anything to do with you. What did that look like from your kids? I'm not trying to demonize them. This is just a nice way. You're totally,

Heather: it's a good question. So my oldest would just never be home or and then my son just was very prickly toward me.

Wouldn't let me hug him. I was always stupid. They never called me stupid, but. When kids will correct you or just roll their eyes at you. I could tell that they didn't enjoy being with me. It was nothing overt. Yeah. Whatsoever. Just non connected.

Monica: And that's so tough. I imagine as they were little children, that was a big place of pride for you of just knowing like I'm building these connective relationships and looking forward to how they grow.

Heather: They did adore me when little, like nothing beats their tiny little arms around your neck and they pull you in and they just are so chewy sweet. And I loved that. And I just thought. Duh, we'll just maintain this. They might not want to pull me in for a hug quite as often, but it really was very cold and distant.

Monica: So I talked about differentiation earlier and you talked about how you went back to school just to help yourself get through these teen years better. And I'm sure there was a lot of learning about. Age appropriate development and differentiation. So how about you enlighten the parents who are beginning or maybe they're halfway or they're past it too.

And they just want to know more of the science of like, why did my kid start disconnecting from me? Why did they start not liking me or wanting to be around me or finding it so easy to criticize me?

Heather: Yes. So there's two different chunks. There's the criticism and then the pushing away. So the criticism piece comes from realizing that we're not perfect.

All of a sudden they are seeing things more clearly and they can see what's hypocritical about us. They can see what's imperfect about us. They can see our flaws for the first time and it can be revelatory for them. It's like their eyes are now open, because their brain is developing into a more adult brain.

And so even though we're the same person, they're seeing us through a different lens, a new lens.

Monica: And that must be shattering for them too. That was

Heather: totally, and they haven't learned the skill of a filter yet. I feel like parents and children can both objectify one another pretty easily. As a mom, have you ever felt that the only reason you exist in your kid's eyes is to feed them and meet their needs?

Like you're just an object to them. I don't know if I'm alone in that.

Monica: No, you're not. You're not. But,

Heather: but so all of a sudden they're like here's this object of a mother that's always done these. She's doing these things wrong. I need to point them out to her. Just like we take liberties with our little kids to point out with what they're doing wrong.

Like it's this reverse of roles, honestly,

Monica: I can see that. And

Heather: then with, the other psychological thing going on. That happens because it's like this psychological milestone where we want to be independent of our parents and assert our adult ness.

That can be a normal stepping stone that. And it, for everybody, it looks a little bit different, right? For

Monica: one, are you trying to say they're, I just want to make sure I understand like they're trying things on for size,

Heather: things on, but in a way that separates them from us, got it. They want to assert their independence and autonomy.

It's really common when kids are getting ready to leave the nest, their senior year, they'll start fighting a lot more with their parents, because then it won't be as devastating when they leave, because they'll be sick of each other. It's a psychological thing that our kids are doing throughout adolescence because they want to be independent of us.

Okay. It's actually psychologically healthy, even though it can be really frustrating. But when you approach it as this is totally normal and not a problem and how can I love and set boundaries and rules and let them still feel like an independent human. Do you remember as a teenager thinking my parents have nothing to do with me?

I'm my own little person and I just live at their house and I love them and all they're great, but they don't play into my identity so much.

Monica: They're trying to assert that. Can you talk a little bit more about why is that healthy then?

It's not fun. Yeah. They're doing it, but why is it a good

Heather: thing? Some parents might want their kids to live with them and need them into their 30s, but most parents don't, right? And the parents that do want their kids to constantly need them, that's something that the parent should look at strongly because that's also not healthy for the parent.

We want our kids to be functional adults, but it still hurts when that begins sooner than we would like.

Monica: So the big picture here is we want to raise. Independent, functional adults who have a strong sense of self. And before that, there's going to be a lot of mess and includes good and bad, but there's going to be a time period where it's happening sooner and in ways that are not fun and maybe unhealthy or a little even scary at times.

Yeah.

Heather: Another analogy to look at would be and sometimes this is a smooth transition. Sometimes it's very rocky when. A couple gets married and then their peers with their parents, right? You have a mother in law that doesn't want to cut the apron strings. You have a father who still wants his son to be his best friend.

You have, and so that's another level of growing up. And having to readjust the family dynamic, maybe that's easier for us to remember if we think back on the years when we were first married, if it was an adjustment for our families of origin.

Monica: So our lens in my podcast is perfectionism, right? And we can talk about perfectionism parenting, which I'm grateful that we were able to do when you were on your side of the table, leading it.

I want to ask, how do we handle. Then when our kids are in this developmentally appropriate phase of differentiating and trying to assert autonomy, but what they're doing is they're almost becoming perfectionist to us, where it's that lens of criticism is if it becomes pretty high and pretty obvious, and it's really hurtful to have our flaws pointed out our mistakes often, shouted from the rooftops in ways that are new to us.

How would you recommend? Parents better manage that tricky part of

Heather: this phase. Yeah, it's a combination of humility and confidence. So owning, yeah, you've never noticed that before, but it's always been there. Sorry, dude. I am disappointing sometimes. I've learned to live with it. You can too, right?

And then also, like you said, our role is to model for our children. And so that doesn't mean that we should just continually let them speak to us in a way that no other human would put up with. Yeah. So you can say, yeah, that's true. And also saying that at the dinner table in front of everybody, would you appreciate that if I had done that to you?

That was really embarrassing to me and calling them out in a loving way. Like why did you feel I am and everybody laughed, you got attention, but doing that to people in the future, you're probably not going to have a lot of friends. That's not good social etiquette, right? And mentoring

Monica: for them.

Yeah, so it's a fine line of, like you said, humility and confidence, but with that also knowing when to help them learn how to empathize and. And see you as a person, because sometimes I feel like once they begin to see you as an actual person, all they can see is the bad, which is

Heather: what's hard. Yeah, and what we have done to them often, sheds a light on why they're behaving the way that they are to us.

Not that we cause them to treat us that way, because that totally may or may not be the case. But it can, if your kids aren't to that point yet, reflect on how you speak to them how you correct and guide them and do it in a way that you wouldn't mind being in their shoes, right? That's so powerful, wow.

Yeah, because otherwise we're just setting the stage for how they'll treat us. Potentially, not always. You have different personalities in the mix, but that's a good foundation to set. I would never do that to you. Why did you feel that it was appropriate to do that to me?

Are you just seeking attention? Like you did get everybody to laugh when you said that. But also nobody wants those kinds of friends that use everybody else as the butt of their joke. That's not kind. And we're not an unkind family. So how could you have done that differently? Or whatever.

Just walking them through and correcting them so that they're socially aware. And so to be able to make our kids socially aware That what we think is appropriate or entertaining or attention grabbing, there's another side to that and to consider that as well.

And that's just a process.

Monica: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you're not going to, after you listen to Heather, you're not going to go about your day and just totally do this perfectly from here and it's developmentally appropriate and they're not socially aware and it's blah, blah, blah, but it's going to take a few.

Bad tries of being able to deal with it in ways that you're not taking it to heart so much when they say it, but also trying to help them become that adult. So one thing I wanted to ask you about is as we're moving into the teenage years, when they're little, trying to not just point out what they're doing wrong, and the flaws, and what they need to fix, and do better. Praising where they're doing well, encouraging them And all of that without it being about on the outcomes, which we've already talked about with my side. How do we do this with teens though?

Especially what if we feel like we didn't do a great job of this when they were kids, but now it's coming back in the other direction towards us, how can we, with

Heather: my two oldest kids, I use two different approaches. So with my oldest, I just started behaving differently because relationships are like a dance.

If you're used to doing the tango. But then one of you starts doing the walls, you, the other person can't really do the tango and it causes them to pause and rethink their steps. And let's say you're used to every time your kid comes home, you fight about their missing assignments, right? Or their phone.

And you have this typical conversation of they walk in the door and you're like, dude, I'm this, the school emailed, you're missing two assignments in math. And what, and you had your phone off, so I don't know where you went during lunch or whatever. And they're like, oh, you're such a nag. Why do you, I did it and they haven't turned it in.

And you're like you're not going to be able to go out this weekend if you don't da. You have to stop saying the things you normally say. Because then they can't say, oh, back at you. Because you didn't give them a reason to. You're like, hey, how was your day? I know you always come home hungry and I made you a grilled cheeser.

How's math going? I noticed that you're missing a few assignments. What's going on? Tell me. Oh she just hasn't entered them in. Oh yeah, that happens sometimes. And tell me about what's going on with this, right? And sometimes our kids are, have their headphones in and they don't want to talk to us.

That's fine too. We can always change how we choose to interact with them. And that changes how, what they have to respond to, which changes the dance.

Monica: That's awesome. So you change your behavior and you said you have another method you do with a different child. What's that? Yes. With

Heather: my son. I called myself out.

I was like, listen, I have nagged you. I have been unkind. I have done X, Y, and Z, and I'm sorry, and our relationship is so important to me that I'm trying to change. Please be patient with me. And that was like the best thing that I could have done for us. It depends on the personality and where you're at with each kid, right?

There's, like you said, following your gut is the biggest way to control.

How you show up so listen to your gut, respond to your kids, how you think is appropriate and you might be wrong the first time. So then just rethink it. It's really not a problem to take a few different attempts to figure out what works and then the situation might change and you might have to do it again.

And figure out the process all over again with a different kid or maybe it was from phone to dating you just really have to have a lot of tools and kind of the foundational principles and then you can apply the principles and tools to any situation. Fantastic.

Monica: I know that's hard for people who just want prescriptions, but I know with my work and with your work, prescriptions don't work.

Like we can probably ask Heather, what's the exact conversation we should have? Give me a script and then I can follow it. And for 98 percent of us, it won't work with our particular child for many different reasons. And so learning how to be more intuitive. About parenting and life in general that's the key to so much.

And that comes back to being grounded in yourself and your values and knowing who you are and letting that help you rise above, that roller coaster that parenting can give. I know you've used that metaphor so much, but I just don't think there's any. Better way of visualizing what this looks like.

So I have two final questions for you. I'm a little bit more rapid pace. And the one that I think will be really nice to hear is how can imperfect parents still be connected parents? Because at the end of the day, when they were young and it was easier to connect, because we could just use our bodies in so many ways, because that's where they were at developmentally.

And it's changed with teens. How can imperfect parents still be connected parents with their teams?

Heather: Yeah we're all imperfect, and there are parents who are connected to their teens, so we know it's possible. But the one thing is just grace for everybody. One of my favorite phrases is, and that's okay.

I yelled and that's okay. They got mad and that's okay. I did that poorly and that's okay. They're flunking math and they might not graduate and guess what? That's actually okay. That's okay. How do I want to just show up with love? Love really is, when you were saying there's not one thing that we can say, like there's not a script that we can take, but there is a line, and that is, I love you, no matter what, that there's never an inappropriate time to say that, I love you no matter what.

We're going to get through this together. I'm here to help you. I'm on your team. One of the biggest things that I had to fix, especially with my son, is showing him that I really was on his team. I was no longer on the opposing side. And so when tense situations would come up, I'm on your team I'm your biggest cheerleader and advocate.

I want you to succeed. And just, I guess that's not really one concise thing. Sorry.

Monica: No, but it is though. I think the heart of it is like you said, grace, and it reminds me of something Heidi Swapp often says, which is don't freak out, just try to have that grace for yourself and for them. Take a minute and let that minute give you the grace you need.

To show up.

Heather: Yeah. We really are just all doing our best, including your kid who doesn't want to get up off the couch and is late to school every day. They're doing their best.

Monica: . It's easy to skip over that. But I think starting there is huge. The last question, is what is one small way listeners can take action on what they learned today from you?

Yeah.

Heather: I'm pausing because it just is ironic. Don't expect to be perfect. Yes. Back to the whole grace thing. Try one little thing. You don't have to try all of them. Try one little thing. One little tweak. The title of my podcast is Pivot Parenting, and so every episode I just offer one pivot, one slight turn, one shift.

So just take one thing, practice that, get it to be above 50%, come back and listen And then implement something else. A lot of parents feel like this is a race and there's a lot of urgency. That's a sneaky way for perfectionism is urgency. Like it has to be right now. Yes. The lie. It's never too late.

It's going to be okay. Take your time. Breathe. Like you said, pause, connect, breathe, come back and just try one little shift.

Monica: Beautiful. I feel like pivot parenting is what we do for personal development. You do for parenting, you just make it more doable, more encouraging, but also still the push you need to try something different, to do it a little bit better.

And. Time is often what helps us reap the rewards that we need. So I want to know, I know I'm asking one final question, but I'm like, yeah, thanks. Now, what's it like? You still have at least one team, right? How many teams do you have now?

Heather: My oldest is now 22 and my baby is 13. So you're, I'm out of elementary school, which is wild.

Things are fantastic. That doesn't mean that we hold hands and sing Kumbaya around the fire. Sometimes we do, and that's fun in a proverbial way. But we still have human brains. And so we still need to be like, ouch, or Need our space or whatever, but we're all so much more respectful and connected and honest with one another.

It really is exactly what I had always pictured on the larger scale. Yeah, the details may or remain like maybe different, right? My kids are in different places in their life than I had pictured, but the most important place is intact, which is firmly planted. In our family with love and connection, which is fantastic.

Yeah. And I actually, I'm really excited. I'm writing a book right now. It's called how I fixed my teen. And it's an, a memoir of me and my oldest and all the details of our journey, right? When she threw me a shoulder in the kitchen or when I ran from church crying, like all the details, I have journal entries, it is raw and vulnerable.

And I'm so excited for it to be published either the end of this year or in 2024.

Monica: Awesome. So we will look for that. And I would encourage them to one follow you on your podcast, pivot parenting on Instagram. What, where are you on there?

Heather: Just Heather Frazier coaching. And my website is heatherfrazier.

com. Super easy. I have in my Instagram bio. I have a parenting course. And then I have a free PDF. A lot of what we've talked about today, perfectionism and conversations. And when our kids point out our flaws, a lot of times that's when we're trying to negotiate things, right? Like curfews or phone rules.

And so I have a free one page PDF on negotiating with your teen. And that's on my Instagram bio. Lots of good stuff.

Monica: So on both sides, we'll link to all the things. Yes. Gosh, this was really cool.

Heather: This was really fun. Thank you so much, Monica. Thank you too.

Monica: I can't wait. Can't wait to air this.

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