How to Parent Your Perfectionistic Child, Part Two || with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife and Carolyn Bever

Why you have to start with yourself when parenting a perfectionistic child!

(Note: This is Part Two of How to Parent Your Perfectionistic Child. Start with episode 373 to hear Part One of our conversation!)

So, you officially know that you have a perfectionistic child.  (Psst: yes, even the “under-achiever” types count!) Where can you start as their parent to help them overcome their perfectionistic tendencies?

According to Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife and Carolyn Bever, you have to start with yourself! This advice may seem counterintuitive, but these experts say that managing yourself is KEY to being able to best empower your perfectionist-child.. 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife and Carolyn Bever are back for Part Two of our conversation to talk about your role as you parent a perfectionistic child. (Hint: Your role isn’t to fix or micromanage them. Your role is to love them!) 

This may seem difficult, but Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife and Carolyn Bever give practical tips to best move forward, including: thinking from your child’s point-of-view, getting an outsider’s perspective, and differentiating your role from your child’s.

As parents, we are anxious to do a good job raising our kids. Come listen to two experts discuss how you can parent your perfectionistic child with more love and more confidence, too..

About a few other things...

Reclaim your creative power and rediscover who you actually are! If you’re ready to come back home to yourself, to be able to say that you know who you are and what matters to you, take my foundation course, “Finding Me.” It’s OK that you’ve lost parts of yourself along the way; but as you learn to anchor back into who you are and align your life to what matters to you, you’ll find that you have more strength, more fulfilment, and more creativity to bring to your important roles and responsibilities.

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Songs Credit: Pleasant Pictures Music Club

TRANSCRIPT

Monica: PART TWO:

This is bringing back to the biggest problem with perfectionism as we've been discussing is just this misplacement of identity misplaced your value. Your reward system is all externalized and everything you just talked about, Jennifer, helped me to see this shift is helping them. And yourself recognize what your values are, what their values are, how to be a person of value and how to lean into it with courage and mess and growth and failure. And, you know, we talked all in part. One about excellence can be part of the equation too.

But to me that that is a, that's a big shift

Carolyn: ANd it might be obvious, you know, it really, it might be obvious, but I think about that story and think about the expansion of your son going through that, taking on something that is so challenging is not in that skill.

Versus, I'm not saying the expansion of the mind with, with taking on a challenge that you're already somewhat good at, but isn't life about taking on it and learning and expanding our minds into something else into at least trying something else. And so I think of the development that was happening, the expansion of his abilities in that class.

Right. And taking on that challenge versus somebody where it comes a little bit easier for them. And, you know, again, as a good, hopefully as a good educators, right, we understand pretty quickly, hopefully I can map what the capacity is at that moment. And so lessons look very different for one person versus another.

Right. So my job is to take that. To realize what a clear and doable expectation is, to hold that expectation, to not allow them cells to, you know, not progress to that. And if that is happening, then our job of course is to then figure out why. But yeah, I just think about how, how great it is to take on something, like that story, that you're horrible at.

It's awesome. You know, like it's just comes nothing natural about it. It's it's beautiful.

Jennifer: And I remember in that particular music camp, I remember the teacher of my oldest, you know, my child with autism at first, you could tell she, she was having a hard time figuring out what's going on, but then because she cared and she was a good teacher, she started to figure out who he was.

And she figured out that he liked physics and math. And so she started using metaphors from physics, like the fulcrum where's the balance point, you know? So she started talking to him where he was and then pushing him just beyond his capacity, which is just a brilliant teacher, you know, that you mapped to who the person is, what are they able to do?

And then you, you push them to expand themselves. Because when we expand ourselves, we feel good. You know, happiness in marriage is very much linked to self expansion within that marriage. If you constrict yourself to keep the marriage together, you will be miserable in the marriage. And you don't want to push people too far, because then they go into kind of this sense of failure and insufficiency.

But an ideal teacher is tracking what is needed and pushes just into the point of discomfort. You know, you're out of your league, you're uncomfortable, but it's not over your head. And so, you know, I just remember watching her do that and I was so grateful to her. To care about him, enough to track who he was to care about him enough, to speak in a language that he could understand.

And then Carolyn's is very good at this. I watch her do it all the time with her students, you know, and then, and then just holding for him a belief in him. And that's just such a gift and good modeling for me and good for him to have other adults that really care about him.

Monica: We're all crying now. So. . .

Carolyn: Well, when they see that level of caring and teaching. Like I was speaking to before it does take a village, but it's good modeling. We all become better. We all expand ourselves. We're all, you know, realizing what our, you know, Job is on the planet, right? It's expanding, loving, and caring for each other. And nothing is less caring in my mind that putting up these false fronts of pretending we're something we aren't about, you know, continuing the lie of that you are not human; that you are somehow different because you feel that way. And so that's why I feel like it's so important to, to be that model to say, yes, of course, it's scary, you know, when you're in middle school and you don't know, but we, you know, I'm still your friend. I will be here, we will figure it out and you'll figure it out. And the more you do, the more you're going to find, you know, what you are capable of.

Jennifer: And just, I had one more thought about that, like that. I think sometimes too, what I'm seeing my kids struggle around certain things, I think, oh, I know what the answer is. Just do it this way. If you do this, I promise you it's going to be easier and there's nothing wrong with, obviously, if you've lived life longer, you're going to have some good ideas about how things could go better.

But I think it also helps me a lot to remind myself. I did not have any of these things worked out. Then I was uncertain. I wasn't clear I wasn't secure. And they are entitled to that process too. And so don't lose perspective about where they are, let them belong to this process that has dignity in it has deep value in it and just love them in it because it's one that's so fundamental to being human.

And that tolerance for the uncertainty of development, the pain of development, the anxiety, and to just love each other in that is really one of the greatest kindnesses that we can offer to ourselves and others.

Monica: And we don't want to rob them of that, you know, adequate. Validating, and we can keep modeling and guiding them through it, but we don't, we can't take that away from them. They need it.

I'm glad that you spoke to expansion, both of you because. When we're trying to help our perfections to children, it's not that we don't want them to aspire for more. It's not that we want them to stop trying to grow and to be better, it's done in a different way. And it's done from a different place.

 And if I were to sum up everything I've learned from me today, which by the way, I think it needs to be a book and you two should coauthor it and I'm not even kidding. And I have your outline already right here. I've got your outline, but if I were to sum it up, I would, to me it's acceptance and awareness, and just how that intertwines with everything we just talked about.

Some people who are listening, some parents they're feeling really good, but they're also feeling really overwhelmed now. So let's give them one way they can start on this. Carolyn let's start with you. What's one thing they can do

Carolyn: One thing I would say to my violin families, which I'm sure they'll listen to is, is manage yourself.

Don't put that on them. And it's such a loving thing to do because you don't want to pass that on and let them have their own thing.. Don't let them please don't ask them to manage yours. So I would say that would be my number one thing. And then like, I know this is again,ridiculously cliche, but love them by knowing what your roles are and loving them doesn't mean enabling or doing it for.

But learn how to be the best parent you can, by understanding what your role is as a coach and a cheerleader. Well, keeping the expectation of excellence and perseverance and process.

Jennifer: I just want to point out that she said two things . . . Just the one thought I was just going to add actually to what Carolyn said, 'cause I think sometimes people are like, well, I don't know how I'm inspecting my child. I know there were times where I knew I was doing something off, but I couldn't see it. I couldn't figure out like, why am I child was reacting to me because I'm like, I feel like I'm being calm, being fair, you know?

And so the thing I would sometimes try to do what, well, first of all, I'd ask other people ask my husband, what do you think is going on? What am I doing in this process?

I sometimes ask my child, like, what's, what's hard about me in this moment. They aren't always able to tell you, or they don't necessarily know there. They just don't know. They don't like it, but I would also sometimes imagine, what would it be like to be my child? Would I like the way that I'm talking to me? You know, what would I see in it? And then what would I want instead? Because it just allows you to get out of your own self justified mind.

And I don't mean that in a bad way. We, we naturally justify ourselves. We naturally, it makes sense to us what we're doing. So I wanted to somehow figure out how it didn't make sense by trying to get good feedback and get into my children's shoes. And it's a good thing to do in marriage or any other place for that matter if you're kind of stuck in a relational pattern.

So I think that's one thing. You know what I like me showing up to a violin lesson, you know, maybe not as soon as you're figuring out why not and how would I want myself to be if I were the child of me.

But then the one point I think, you know, to what Carolyn was saying, this idea of the more than I and I, this is very conceptual. So I'm trying to think about how to keep it as concrete as possible, but the more that I can accept myself as a flawed human. Which is its own process, especially if you came from a perfectionistic family or parents that were always critical, or you're very conscientious and it's hard for you to tolerate your own limitations, but the more you can be compassionate towards your own humanity, the more you really have it to give towards your child.

And so, you know, like seeing some of my kids struggle, it's been very helpful for me to just say, I love this person. In this process, no matter what happens, it's on them. It isn't on me. It's their job. It is not my job. It is my job to love them, not hover in micromanage and not disinvest, but care about them enough, to care about their life, even when they're struggling, even with things, or even when I think they're not making great decisions.

To still care enough to reach out and then not try to micromanage and critique it into position or check out, but to say like, how do you think, how do you think that went for you? What do you think you would work better for you? I'm sorry that it's hard. Sounds hard. Do you have thoughts about what would help you?

Right, so that it's more like I care. And this is my approach . . . . Think about it as if it's somebody else's child. Sometimes I've met with adolescents and they're talking about their parents are doing, and I'm thinking, you know, gosh, you're such a great kid. Can't they see that?

Like, but that's somebody else's child where I I'm sure I can do the same thing when it's been my own children. But if I think of it as someone else's child, I'm immediate, like what a great kid, what an earnest, wonderful human being. Who's struggling in some way, but. That's okay. They're just a human being.

So it's just somehow easier when you can just check your sense of self out of the equation. It's so much easier to love them. When you think your sense of your values walking around on them, it's going to be really hard to be involved if you think you've got to manage it or get away from it to manage your sense of self.

Carolyn: Just ask my kids how good a violin teacher I was to them versus the other 50 people going, Hey, mom how come you're not that fun. . .

Monica: Yes, it is so much harder. Yeah. I've taught piano to my own kids and I was a piano teacher off and on too. That is a completely different experience when it's your own children.

I'm sure. Starting this episode, people were like, great! I'm going to get the scripts on what I'm going to say. Exactly the exact tools I'm going to make this child better. But no, what it really is about is. How to manage yourself and you know, and how to accept your own limitations and just love. And

Jennifer: exactly. And we're all in this like this, you know, Carol and I were looking at the questions and she said, good thing. We're so perfect at this.

Because it's very much like learning to have compassion is a developmental capacity compassion for our humanity . . . Compassion for ourselves, compassion for others. It's something you grow into through effort through an attempt to expand your heart. And that's what spiritual and personal development is. So even to have compassion for ourselves in that process is half the battle.

It really is because, I just hope no one's going to go away thinking, oh, you know, I'm other people are so good at this and I'm not. I hope not because it's like, no, We can all just try a little harder and love a little more. And as we do it, it gets easier, but it is a process and to appreciate small gains, that really, really matters because it happens over time and you're, and, and little things matter for your kids.

Like even just settling down and being a little kinder, a little more compassionate, really helps. Sometimes just interacting with my, with my teenage daughter through text sometimes helps because she'll say I didn't do this. And I'm like, well, my, my own judgment will come in and that, but I have so little time to be like, gosh, you're trying to manage so many things, which is really true.

And just to come in with the compassion. "Sounds hard. I'm sorry. It's sorry. You're having a hard time right now." And, and so it allows a little space to do that, but then they map that and then they respond differently. They feel that you care and then they can say a little more

Carolyn: and they're owning it for themselves and they're not picking on you.

Right. Because we all want to belong. They have to own it to care.

Monica: Yeah, belonging. Yep. I love that. Okay. So where, where should we send people who are just interested in, in, in both of your works? I, I know that Carolyn years more in the interior design,

Carolyn: I know, I know I have, yeah. I have a full studio obviously, but I did cut back a lot. It was kind of, you know, a lot along that topic, it was funny.

Cause people were like, how are you? To cut. How are you going to figure out who to let go? Because we have a lot of amazing interior design jobs, but . . .

Jennifer: She has a violin studio and a design studio.

Carolyn: Right. So while I was cutting back on the violin, because I had, you know, a lot of students still, but I was funny cause people were like, are you just going to keep, you know, those higher levels?

And in fact that is not at all, what I did. I just took, you know, kept, you know, students that were earnest. And I felt like, you know, they had a lot of passion for it. So so yeah, so a good studio, but yes, you know I don't have an, I have an Instagram for design, you know, we, Leah and I started this design company. It's been wonderful.

Monica: And what's your Instagram handle?

Carolyn: I know I should know that, but it's at @LCBdesigngroup.

Monica: Okay, great. We will link that and Jennifer, where should people go if they want to? What's the first stop with you?

Jennifer: The best first stop is just my website, which is finlaysonfife.com. And, and if people don't know, I have a podcast, a free one, which is just interviews on these kinds of topics around spirituality, relationships, sexuality, perfection, all those. And then I have online courses for couples and individuals around relationships and intimate relationships. So around just the quality of your marriage, but also your sexuality and your sexual relationship.

And then I have a new thing, which is my own podcast now where I'm doing couples coaching. And so you get to listen in on my work with couples around intimacy issues, relationship issues. You know, people can hear themselves in these stories, but can then seek the input that I'm giving to them. So that's been my newest thing, which has been a lot of fun. It's been a really rewarding thing. It's really fun,

Carolyn: fun isn't the right word, but it's very, it expands the mind.

Monica: I was just going to say expansive, look what we did here now.

We're on the same Brainwave. It's Room for Two, for those who are interested in that. And it just for the record, when I, when I've done your courses in the past, like you had office hours that were included for a set amount of time and you could pay for more office hours. And I feel like this is an incredible deal to get room for too, because it's like having office hours on an accelerated level at an incredible price.

Jennifer: I think it's pretty powerful to hear through story. Through examples. Lots of people say to me, like I thought, oh, I wouldn't relate to this couple. And then we're like, dang it. That's us again,

Carolyn: At another point we were talking about that, you know, with teaching our kids, right. We all, it's easier if we're hearing things that we can take ourselves out of. So when you're listening to these couples, you, you, if you're honest with yourself, you'll understand you know, you're like, oh, I do that.

I do that really, really powerful.

Monica: Well, both parenting and marriage are the refiners fire of development. Right?

Jennifer: And a beautiful living room to cope.

Monica: It's all works together.

Carolyn: It does hurt your built-ins at the end of the night.

Monica: They all matter. They work together well. Thank you guys. Thank you so much for being on the show again. I loved every minute of this.

Carolyn: I really, I really value what you're doing.

Jennifer: I think. Beautiful. Yes. Yeah. I was just thinking about that yesterday. For some reason, there's this thing it's pretty cool that Monica has taken what was the challenge in her life and has turned it into a strength and something to offer to other people.

Pretty amazing. Yeah.

Monica: Well, that's thanks to you too.