How to Make the Essential Things More Effortless || with Greg McKeown

Tools to make it easier to do what matters most.

Does your to-do list make you feel burned out? Part of the problem comes from our hustle culture that glorifies people who “have it all” by doing it all. But, in reality, we can’t have–or do–it all, all the time.

How can we avoid this burnout when we have so much to do?

Greg McKeown has studied and written extensively on this subject. The answer: essentialism. Essentialism is the practice of paring down your life to only the essential. (Ex: simplifying your priorities AND your to-do list.)

But, what happens when even the most essential tasks of life STILL overwhelm you?

This was also the case for Greg. He discovered that although essentialism is THE start to living a more balanced life, there’s another step that follows: making what’s essential effortless. 

In this episode, Greg talks about how you (as a REAL woman) can implement his ideas. You’ll leave with two questions you can ask when you feel burned out: “Is this essential?” And, “How can I make what is essential effortless?” 

Plus, you’ll hear practical steps you can take to actually apply this in your life. 

If you want to avoid burnout AND have the ability to do what matters most without the hustle, you won’t want to miss this episode!

About a few other things...

Reclaim your creative power and rediscover who you actually are! If you’re ready to come back home to yourself, to be able to say that you know who you are and what matters to you, take my foundation course, “Finding Me.” It’s OK that you’ve lost parts of yourself along the way; but as you learn to anchor back into who you are and align your life to what matters to you, you’ll find that you have more strength, more fulfillment, and more creativity to bring to your important roles and responsibilities.

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TRANSCRIPT

Monica: Greg McKeown, thank you so much for joining us on About Progress.

Greg: Oh, it is so nice to be with you. Thank you.

Monica: Well, it's a huge honor. Your first. book is often as described as "life changing." And it was for me. Essentialism is a book I read every year and it helps people understand what matters most. And it's so clarifying, but even you found as the head of that movement that really took the world by storm, even you struggled with living that out because it turns out there are a lot of really important essential things.

So how did you come to knowing that what was next was to better help people work through all of what was important to them?

Greg: Well, I want to answer that question, but first I want to connect with something I think that's really important, which is that I sort of in secret wrote both Essentialism and the new book Effortless for the people who listen to your podcast.

And yes, because, because the heart of both of them. ..This is really literally true. It's not, it's not like a little line . . . The first version of Essentialism was a book written for a different publisher. We never went very far with it and it was called something different at that time, but it was years before.

And, and it was to, to a publisher that had the audience primarily of women age, let's say 35 to 55 who are dealing with all of the unbelievable challenges and responsibilities of that stage in life.

 There's always this core of it that is, you know, the, these, the people listening right now: people who feel stretched too thin work or at home, feel busy, but not necessarily productive, feel that day to day is endlessly hijacked by other people within their own families, often. I mean, Children tapping on us all the time. Minds feel crazy by the end of the day. I mean, that's, that's who it's to, and it's not just because it's not just because these, you know, the people listening to this happened to have that struggle.

And I happened to want to address those challenges is because this, the people listening like you right now, who listening to this conversation right now, matter so much, so much more disproportionately than is obvious. So much more than is clearly stated in modern life. And, and and so now coming full circle from that to the question you asked is just, is just after writing Essentialism and trying to live it too and struggling with it and failing with it.

And so it became clear to me that my life, and I'm sure people can relate to this, that sometimes in life it's just like, I, yeah, I have stripped out the nonessentials, but the essentials alone are more than I can possibly do. And as soon as you face that, and every responsible woman does all the time, I mean, that's sort of life.

 That's where Effortless, the new book, begins. And I didn't write it because I thought life is effortless. I wrote it because I know full well that life approximates suffering for almost everybody almost all the time. That was true in my life, but it's true in other people's lives.

And that's why Effortless deserved to be born.

Monica: And even that word, I mean, it sounds almost too good to be true. You know, you just kind of hear "effortless" and you think, well, who's that for? And I love that. You're saying this is for you. This is for, this is exactly who it's for. It's for the people who have too much good things to do, especially with the word you used, "responsibilities" that's actually a huge word in our community is because we feel both the honor of it and the overwhelming impossibility of them, too.

Greg: Well, I mean, you, your, your reaction to that was the same reaction my wife Anna had when I first pitched this idea. Now to be, to be a member of my to my immediate family, is to be a semi employed in brainstorming book, titles, and subtitles. I obsessed around that more than I would say, the, maybe even the average author.

And so I could do it right. I could walk into any room with any person, child, teenager, my wife, and just say a word. And they would know what I was talking about. I would just say, what about this? And they'd be like, yeah, I kind of like that. No, that's not, I don't get it. I don't know. And they just get immediate reaction and Anna's only ever concern about "effortless" was like unreachable, too much. And I weighed that up a lot. And, and I mean, there was an alternative subtitle for effortless was, "because not everything has to be so hard." And there was something about that. I'd put that out one time on social media and somebody responded, a woman responded and she said, I feel seen when I hear that phrase, And, and that's the, you know, again, that's the heart of this is like, if life were effortless, there's no justification to write a book called that.

 There's a group of people, I reckon people listening to this know exactly what I'm talking about, there's a group of people that's called the, in the hit squad. This is the hardworking, intelligent, talented group of people. And they have learned by experience and by culture and so on that, the way to better results is to push harder. And, and they, not only that they want better results. I mean, maybe it's a business-y way of saying it, but it's like they want 10 X results, much better results for their own lives, for their own health, for their, for their children, for the, for the family, for friends.

I mean, they want much better results, but that's where it starts to get complicated. Like what I'd say the 10 X dilemma, because no one in the hit squad, no one listening to this can work 10 times harder. You want 10 times better results. And you've been taught that the only way to get better results have to work harder.

And then you think, okay, well, the only way to get it is by 10 X hard work, then either you give up on essential, important things before you begin, because there's a cost, you can't do that. Or you say, well, I can do it, but I have to sacrifice, you know, I have to give more.

It's so important. I'll just, and you end up sort of killing off the asset that is YOU. More of your sleep, more of your sanity, you know, they, if they can't see me, if they can't value me, you know, they're not fine. I won't value myself. You approach burnout all the time.

And so then every request of you is like a pound of flesh. You know, and, and, and actually you are kind of killing yourself off and they are killing you off. And it is real. I mean, I think that there's only two kinds of people in the world right now. Maybe there's only two kinds of women listening to this right now. Group one is the women listening to this who burned out. And then the other group is the group who know they're burned out.

Maybe that's it. And if the second category, then you can do something about it. And I'm just trying with Effortless and with Essentialism to try to help people in exactly that situation. Okay. Maybe there are ways to break through to higher contribution without burning out. Maybe there's a different way to do life. That is not what we've been maybe taught or heard in the culture. Oh, a hustle culture and all these things that get emphasized. But, but, but you actually can, but it's a different way and it's a different way than it's been sold to us thus far.

Monica: I think that definitely comes to mind with motherhood in general. You know, you're just kind of sold both a bill of goods, but also a bill of built-in expectations of what the responsibilities are, and they're massive. And this is for every parent, but motherhood is a little bit different. The amount of pressure that is aggrandized by both like the martyr mother culture, like we're more celebrated, the more that we have lost ourselves and sacrificed ourselves, which means, as you know, we have nothing to give from--that burnout--or there's the other pendulum swing. We never feel like we can do enough. So we're fighting both of those at the same time. So, if you had that in mind what would you say to the women who, you know, maybe they they've read Essentialism and they're familiar with your work.

They're trying to be more essential, which I think is the first half of what they need to do. And then from there, how does, what would effortless look like for them from there?

Greg: Yeah. I mean, let's, let's just start with something really, really simple and easy on this and it's it's to invert. And what I mean by it is that is the insecure overachievers, mothers or otherwise, I think that we've kind of covered this, that, that you have to solve things through just more effort, pushing harder, doing more, sacrificing more. In fact, sacrificial is the only righteous path in life let's say. And of course sacrifice has a role, but I'm not advocating not sacrificing anything, but there's also an unhealthy way to take these things.

And that is that's who I'm speaking to and what you can do, let's say invert. Maybe people could remember George Costanza in Seinfeld where he has that episode. Remember the episode where "the do everything opposite." Oh yeah, of course. He's a total failure his whole life. And then he's like, I should just do the opposite of my intuition. I should just do the opposite and everything starts working. In the same way, that's what I mean by invert. It's almost like a mindset shift. Anything you're doing, any new project, any new requests, anything you believe is essential. So the first question, is it essential? Is it not essential? It's not essential. Let's not do it. If it's essential, then you have a second question. Okay. Am I making this harder than it needs to be? Or is there an effortless way to achieve this.

There's a, a BYU manager who I was having a, sort of a impromptu coaching conversation with who is the kind of person who stays up till 4:00 AM in the morning, Photoshopping for the young women's group the next day. And no one's asking you to do that. No one is expecting you to do that. That is, and yet she thinks that's the only way to do better. She said to me, "I feel guilty if I eat lunch." Stop for lunch, not if I take time out for lunch. If I eat lunch, I feel guilty. See, I mean, that's what we're talking about.

That's where that's where a whole approach and mindset is that that's not suddenly to diminishing returns, it's like negative returns. So you're going to make everything worse. You're going to burn out yourself, then burn out your relationships and that isn't going to work in anything like the long run.

Well, I said to it like invert, ask a different question and that's really what I'm getting to a specific new question. Don't ask how can I just make this happen, push harder to give more sacrifice more. You say, how can I make it effortless to achieve this outcome? That was the opposite. That's the question.

Now what happens is that she gets a call from a professor at BYU the next day he says, listen, I, I I'd like you to get your videography team to come and record my class for the semester. In the past, you wouldn't have asked any questions. She wouldn't pause. She have just been like, I'm going to impress him. I'm going to wow him. And, and she had visions already immediately. I'm going to have, we'll have multiple cameras in the room. We'll record it all. We'll edit it together. We'll have music at the beginning and the end we'll have slides and we'll have graphics and it's going to be great, a four month project.

And then she remembers the coaching, but is there an effortless way to get what he really wants? Well, what does he really want? Oh, it turns out this is for one student. Who's going to miss a few classes because of an athletic commitment and so she says, well, what if we just had somebody in the class record on you know, the phone?

Yeah. Send it to that one student, whenever he's going to miss this, just like I am, he was over-complicating everything. He hadn't thought About it. He's like, oh yeah, that's great. That is solves everything. I'll just say that to him done. 10 minute conversation based on this inverted question, saves four months of work. For a whole team of people. And that's the idea, that's the power of asking that question. Not once, not twice. You just keep asking it and asking it and you'll be judged to be amazed at how often that there are solutions fast simplify, easier ways to achieve a noble end.

Monica: So the first question is "what is essential?" And the second, I'm just making sure I got this clear. And the second question,"how can I make this effortless?" Yeah. And so with the first one, can we go back to that a little bit? I know that you have a whole book on it. Let's just refer people to that, but I want to speak to one part of this that I see women really struggling with, and it's the acceptance of trade-offs as they are essentializing. Any advice on how to better handle, just what comes up emotionally with, you know, choosing some trade offs.

Greg: Yes. I mean, let, let's just, let's just define trade offs. Trade off is that when you say yes to one thing you're saying no to something else. Right. And the idea really is to accept it, to be honest about it, we have been so sold the idea that there should be no trade-offs.

You can divide demographically people over the last, let's say 50 years and, and lots of groups have done much, much better. But generally speaking, we don't have time to get into all the data of it, but women and working women have become less happy over that period.

And that bucks the trend. And, you know, one can, you know, only hypothesize as to why, but one reason I think is that, is this idea you not only can have it all, which I think itself is not true. But, but that you should have it all. And that the price for having it all is doing it all. So, all you have to do is do it all and then you can have it all. And you should. And if you, if you don't have it all is because you aren't doing enough and because you aren't measuring up.

I mean, that, that is such, that is such a recipe for unhappiness because let's look at the minute because it's based in lies. Right. You cannot do it all. So like that premise is wrong and if you and you can't have it all either. Like nobody can, I didn't even think to say, and you certainly all at once. All right now, so it's like, you can have anything, but not everything.

And so suddenly what, what comes out of this? The idea of trade-offs to embrace trade-offs, to celebrate it, to rejoice in it, because what's really hidden inside of trade-offs is strategic advantage that you can say I'm not trying to be this.

And I'm not interested in being like that person or what they've achieved and is great for them. Go for it. You be that you be, you that's it. You don't have to judge that. I'm not, I don't want to do that. I want to be this kind of person. I want to have this kind of experience in life. And so the trade offs are celebrating the yes and saying I want to make trade off so that I can reinforce the strategy I actually want to . Not pursue a strategy by default that has been laid out. But you know, in sold in, in, in magazines and social media endlessly.

Monica: Yes. Endlessly is totally the right word for that.

 You know, I was thinking as you were talking about how, what truly is essential for, I think every human on earth, it comes down to relationships. And yet that's the very thing that seems to be forfeited when we are trying to fulfill our responsibilities that are related to those relationships. So often, especially for those who do a lot of care work at home.

And, and that's where both, you know, both of those questions you brought up earlier, I think are so helpful, but also just, you know what you're saying about trade offs.

That's effortless to, to make something effortless, you have to choose a different way. You have to choose that you have to celebrate the yes you want as part of that. So do you have any advice?

Greg: There are some predictable things that, that, that women will have people in generally actually, but we've been emphasizing women for this podcast and this conversation. But, but we'll, we'll typically put down first.

And my experience with this is the first thing that you will put down,the first essential thing you will, you will neglect is, is health personal health. Sleep, eating, drinking water exercise. Right. We know what they are, but those are the things that normally get put down first.

And the second thing that gets put down is our closest, most important relationships. As it happens, I'm working on a new book and the new book is centered in relationships. And in communication and, and understanding each other. And so, so I think one of the things I would just answer is that I think the key to, to being able to sort of apply essentialism to relationships, and effortlessness to relationships is to, is to recognize, like I have got to invest in understanding the other person and understanding myself. Like understanding and being understood, this is to me, a human's deepest need to be seen, to be heard, to feel like you matter.

And, and we all want that, but because we go about it perhaps in the is slightly the wrong way. Like we want that those needs to be met. We often miss what actually matches to each other. We don't understand precisely enough so we can put enormous amounts of effort into a relationship sometimes and, and be doing the wrong things.

I mean, who hasn't, who hasn't had the experience where you have received a gift and it's like, you feel embarrassed, you've maybe even feel some shame about it. It's like, that's the wrong gift, man. I feel lonelier receiving it than even if I hadn't really. And of course it's then complex emotions.

Cause you feel like, I mean, how ungrateful is that and how should I should feel so bad about that? Of course, they're just trying to do some nice and so-and-so, it's all this complex inside, but what it really is, what that emotion is. I think we are supposed to feel it is I'm not known. I don't feel known, and that is a need.

It's not, it's not "a nice to have." We always say, it's nice to eat. It's nice to drink. It's nice to be known. We need to be known. And really if we don't understand that or admit that, and don't find ways to have that need met, it will come out in uglier ways. You can ignore it. It will not ignore it.

And so, this is like the breakthrough. When, when you, when you can break through and develop the mindset and the skills to be able to understand others precisely who they really are and what really matters to them and what doesn't, and, and you can also learn the skills to be able to communicate to yourself what really matters to you and what doesn't; your uniqueness.

That's the breakthrough because then suddenly relatively modest effort can bring forward relatively amazing outcomes. You can make people glow. If you, if you understand what matters. And who hasn't had the conversation. Oh my goodness. I'm trying, I'm doing so much. I'm doing all this. I'm doing all this for you and the other person you haven't, I don't care about that stuff. You know, that's great. I mean, I'm, I'm doing this, I'm working all the time. I'm making all this, I'm doing all these things. I'm making all these sacrifices. It's like, yeah. But all I want to do is spend time with you sitting down, listening, you know, let's drink tea together and that's all I want to do.

It's like we don't get to those conversations. We don't understand how to say what we really want. And listen in a way that we can make it safe for other people that say what they really want, we're rubbish at figuring out what each other wants. Seriously. I don't want to say it. It's Vulnerable to say it because we can feel very rejected if we say what we want.

So this to me is what essentialism and effortless looks like in relationships.

Monica: And I can see how clearly they work together as well knowing yourself, which I could not separate from what you just shared there is that is an essential need to is knowing and seeing yourself and what you want and who you are and what you need and what matters to you.

Greg: We've been doing this this fun, well, I said it's fun exercise, you know, psychology is for nothing if it isn't to sort of torture your own children. And so, and so I, I have a norm when I'm reading and studying and researching as soon as I've learned something, I want to practice it instantly, immediately I'll mess it up and I don't care.

I just want to try it because I'll learn more into trying a bit than just. You know, and one of the things that we've been trying out as a family is whenever there's like a little conflict or contention with the children, they're all teenagers now. And I'll say, I will say, okay, we hit pause. I say, what do you feel? And what do you want?

And do you know what happens every time is is exactly the same every time. Is this body language and both people will do it. They just like, they literally put their head down, not in shame, just like it's like in thoughtful. It's like, Hmm.

So here they are having an argument here. There is some contention. And when I say, what do you feel and what do you want? They don't know. Isn't that strange? What an oddity, like what are they arguing about? So they'll pause. And then, then literally the coaching is, I feel X. I want Y.

And what it does is that as then somebody says how they feel and what they want. First of all, by saying what you feel produces humanity, right? Like it draws forth the heart of the other, you go, oh, I don't want you to feel that nothing in my intent is wanting that feeling in you. Yeah. You know, the conflict is not, is not about trying to make you feel whatever this negative emotion is. And then when you say this is what I want, it's not what I wanted because no one can do anything about that.

I want this. It educates them and I'm telling you that simple thing is like an instant change. And with some people you may have to practice that for a while. That's what I found because they may, you know, people listening to this chances are, they are not good at saying what they feel and what they want.

And it a little like a 202 guide on this is that most times when, when people say I feel this, actually, they're not going to say a feeling. I feel that you're being really irritating.

So people, sometimes I feel that you should, this, I feel that you're doing that. It's like, what do you actually feel? I want you to name an emotion. You have to go inside. How do I feel right now? I feel hurt. I feel angry. I feel you feel you got to give an actual emotion. And I want this. So then somebody can do it.

And people don't know. People don't know what they want. How on earth are you supposed to know what the other person wants if you do, even that single change, I think that has the power to, to quite positively affect any relationship you're in.

Monica: And it will help answer those two big questions, you know, what is essential and how can this be effortless?

It's being able to get clear about, about that because you can't make something effortless if you don't know what from this actually matters to me. So then I can let go of what is, over-complicating it.

We do a lot of practical stuff, practical tips on the show and we, we definitely go deep too. And this is kind of a trickier one to get practical about, but I'm sure in your years of research and writing and also implementing this, do you have any advice on how to make these, I guess, internalized expectations these shoulds, how to weed through them in a way that it can be, I don't know if easier is right word, but maybe we can say easier since you're all about making things effortless.

How can we make it easier for them to weed through the shoulds?

Greg: Yeah. I'll give you a few practical things. You can say, okay, every day answer the question, what's the most important thing I need to do today. Priority, like single, what's the most important thing. Nobody listening to this who only has one important thing to do. I understand that, but you say, okay, if there is only one, what is it? And maybe you extend that out and you say, okay, if there were two or three really important things I could get done today, what would they be? And why that's so powerful and so immediately effective is it helps you orient the rest of your day.

You will have distraction still. You will have unexpected things happen. All of that's true, but you'll have something to keep coming back to through the day, and it will help you orient all the other choices and decisions that you're facing. That's number one thing that people can do. A number two thing I would say related to that is to, is to then continue with that list until you have what I would call a done for the day list.

So you say, when these things are done today, I will be able to feel satisfied. Like these were important, these were good and I can be done. And then after that, it's no sneaky work. That's what Anna and I call it with each other anyway, no sneaky work when we're done with those, we're done. Now, what do you do after you had done is number three, which is you have to make relaxing a responsibility.

And it is because it's the Slingshot for the next day. So we've gone through like literally two birthdays, a birthday right before Christmas week before Christmas, Christmas, a birthday after Christmas. And of course to everybody knows right through the you know, how much extra is going on through that season, anyway, loads of other responsibilities and ask price. Well, we've lived in that. But we also felt that we needed to move into a, into into a house and basically moved and in the same period. And we felt very clearly we needed to do that. Now that's kind of a recipe for disaster, right. And so, and so, but this relaxing, the responsibility, my wife, Anna, who will, will only send me joke that I wrote essentialism for me and effortless for her.

It's not, I don't know that I did either of those things intentionally, but I think she's probably right. Yeah. So, this idea of taking relaxing his responsibility at first, when she, and I would talk about this, it was like, she would say, I don't even know how to relax and myself, too. I just, just because you've been told that would, Hey, you should relax in life.

It's like, where's the competence for it. You've got to learn how to do it. It seems strange, but that's just what I found. And so she made this a priority that she would try to find a way or like a routine, a ritual of relaxation through this whole move process. I mean, it's very positive thing, but there's no question that that could be completely overwhelming.

And then if you get burned out through it, then that all adds to multiplicity of complications. And so her ritual includes, I mean, it's all the familiar stuff, so it's not like brain science, but, but, but like actually having a bath every night, like I'm doing it, I've stopped no more sneaky work.I'm in there.

And I'm not going to read when I'm in there. I'm not on my laptop or my phone ordering something from Amazon. Right. Cause it's very tempting to do all of that. I'm actually reading. Right. And we have a, there's a whole series. I'm trying to remember the name of it. Well, yeah, Georgett Higher, I probably shouldn't share that maybe she was writing rather than not people know that whole great series.

No, no. There's nothing wrong with that series. Other than it's like kind of you know, British you know, these these, these brilliant novels

Monica: sounds exactly what I want.

Greg: Yes, actually, they are quite entertaining. I mean, I liked them too, but the, but, but so he's reading Georgette Higher. She's reading a book like that and she's maybe even doing a little meditation then.

I'm telling you, this is true. This is personal. This is real. At the end of that, she's like a different person. And I don't think she's got into a bad state. I mean, she has removed the whole predictable exhaustion. And pattern from what would otherwise happen. I mean, there's costs, it would happen. It's predictable.

And so that decision, that choice, that trade off, I am going to make relaxing a responsibility. I'm going to make it a ritual that is enjoyable means that by the end of that, she relaxed and she gets to go, okay, I get to actually, you know, go pray, go sleep. And, and it, it really has made all the difference.

It is a bit of a challenge what we signed up for. But it's, it's taken off all those sharp edges that, that a big transition could have brought about that. So I don't know what number we're on, but I think that's number three. You know, do you want more on, should I stay at three?

Monica: Well, I mean, I could keep asking you to talk more and more, but what I almost feel like is we've gotten a great preview of your next book, which was accidental, but I will take it. I'm excited for that.

You know what I love so much about this whole conversation, Greg is just how it turns everything on its head in ways I think the whole world needs right now. And I appreciate that you were willing to really focus on my audience of women, especially for this chat.

But this is not about superficial productivity. This is not about putting work and responsibilities on pedestals. That really are prisons. This is about relationships. And it's about rest in a, in a wonderful way that I don't see out there very much. So, I want to thank you for, for being so willing to have this conversation for all the work that you're doing.

And if there's, if there's one very small way, you think the listeners could start on our whole conversation today, one small way they could start. What do you think that could be?

Greg: I would say, say no to one thing. I've started doing something recently where I'll actually put my, do my planning in a digital document. And I'll all the things that are done I'll put in a done list. Cause that's like satisfying to me to see the things that got done.

But also a don't do list, what I said no to. There's a few reasons to do that, but one is, it's so empowering to recognize you can choose not to do it. Good things, sometimes exciting things that you just go, "I should want to do that, but I don't, or other people would think that was good, but I just, it feels too much right now."

And just put it on that list. I don't, we're not doing it. Don't do list. And then over time, when you look at that list, you go, wow, I can do it. I actually have more say, more control in my life then is then I feel. We often get so reactive. That is a sense of our life is running us rather than us designing-fully, thoughtfully, deliberately living it.

And and, and I think that's, I think that's a very simple way you say, say no to something, put it on, put it on. We're not doing it list and then just keep adding to it and and see how that will reveal to you what you really prioritize and who you really are. And most of the items, not all, but most of the items on those lists, you can see, you know, you could even go back to if you really wanted to, but it's a good, simple way to start.

Monica: I love how intentionally you even were about the advice, you know, I wish I could see you taking your time to really think that through. It means a lot to me that you would. Greg, this was amazing.I will make sure to link to your new book Effortless as well as Essentialism and your Instagram profile. Is there anywhere else you think people should go if they want to delve more into your work.

Greg: other the resources available to people for free: people can sign up for the one-minute Wednesday newsletter comes out every Wednesday has one minute to just kind of give you a very specific thing you can think about and then act upon immediately sign up at gregmckeown.com. And then of course, there's the podcast as well, the What's Essential Podcast and and that comes out once a week as well to continue these conversations.

Monica: Yes. And I've, I've really loved when your wife has been on the show too. It's, it's fun to hear her, her voice every now and then, but it's a great work that you're doing.

Greg: By popular demand. It's now once a month that we're doing, and we're going to the Q and A episodes in questions, but also my nickname was Q growing up when we first met and we first married and it, and of course her name is Anna.

So the Q and a,

Monica: You got to go with it. We're doing it anyway. Good. Good for you guys. Well, thank you again. I appreciate your time.

Greg: Thank you, bye for now.